Buffalo Rising Online

WCP,

Do you have any knowledge or an idea about the condition of the land? Iim wondering if the site will be ishovel-readyi or a brownfield.

I only know that they have permits to demolish the structures, I don't know if they plan on doing any testing or remediation if anything is found. Seeing that this site has been used by industry since the late 1800's, by definition it is a brownfield (reuse impaired by real or perceived contamination). If the firm hopes to sell the land, they'd be wise to at least do some preliminary soil sampling. It'll be a hard sell without remediating if it's needed.

This is one of those situations where upon arriving at the site, we will see one of those tacky erie county landmark plaques that tells us that air conditioning was invented on this site. Instead of saving the building (a la LCo. Building) we just allow the company who owns it to tear it down. Thanks to air conditioning, people can actually live in Las Vegas and Phoenix, and the landscape of our nation has changed forever. Such an important invention will be remembered, not in a museum, but a plaque in a place where no one will go and see it. How entirely pathetic and sad

Great! More empty space in the middle of the ghetto, classic Buffalo.

woo... hoo...

anothing building down, 15 more vinyl victorians here we come...

what a waste of land and resources.

The Broadway Barns should be moived here to open the space up at their current location so very close to the new Michigan Avenue improvements.

It would be best to move the Broadway PW Barns here to open the space up next to the Michigan Avenue improvements.

The current Broadway Barns location was the original open air market in the city, along with the site of an historic armory. These sites could be added to the new flavor around the Michigan Avenue Baptist Church, Colored Musicians Club, and Mudpies to create a more aesthetic area for visitors and tourists. Just think about the possibilities of utilizing the additional space for family reunions following the Underground Rail Trail.

Of course, Brownfield remediation is necessary, but the new improvements would only be enhanced for tourism with the addition of more public space and the unearthing of the old open air market and the armory. Especially so close to the Canal District and the historic recognitions and improvements there.

Does this mean we are either stuck with another empty lot or more fake plastic suburban looking single housing? Both seem like crappy replacements, yet so typical of this area.

Yeah, like developers are chomping at the bit to invest in this part of the city. There is a true Buffalo landmark not too far from here, Central Terminal, and we can't even get the money to secure its future. So are you really expecting someone to come in here and dump millions of dollars for a great new project? It looks like a war zone over there, so you can hardly blame any private developer for not wanting to risk their own money there. How many BR readers have invested their own money in this neighborhood?

Yeah, like developers are chomping at the bit to invest in this part of the city. There is a true Buffalo landmark not too far from here, Central Terminal, and we can't even get the money to secure its future. So are you really expecting someone to come in here and dump millions of dollars for a great new project? It looks like a war zone over there, so you can hardly blame any private developer for not wanting to risk their own money there. How many BR readers have invested their own money in this neighborhood?

it isn't about the developers current interests now it is about what they might be in another 10 years because 10 years ago people would have said the same thing about almost all of downtown and the west side. and yet parts are coming back.

The problem is politicians don't think things will change. They assume the status quo and in that case yea sure, demolish most of the east side, But as the past 45 years have shown us demolishions do not change anything for the better. I dont know why they still think it will do anything different now

The point is we are loosing the fabric and pieces that will allow us prosper in the future. Sure things have to come down but that should happen when there is something going in. This is just creating more reason for a developer to NOT move into that area.

What is more beneficial to the city? A vacant, decaying Buffalo Forge, or inhabited vinyl victorians? Which helps the neighborhood? It would be great to move the PW barns there.

Architecture is a resource. An empty building in and of itself is not a threat to anyone. These vancant buildings should be secured. Close or board up the windows and keep the roof in tact. This demo will not help this commmunity.

Rarely does a demo help a community. In a practical sense, as well as taking into account aesthetics, would you prefer the building as it was, or a vacant lot? We all would prefer the buildiing secure and maintained for future use, but corporate owners have a tough time seeing maintenance as a valid expense sometimes.

But it is their duty as land owners to take care of their property. If someone in kenmore has to mow their lawn and can get fined for it being more than three inches tall we can fine and force people to maintain their own land.

If they can't take care of it, sell it, to someone else who can. If it ends up in the publics hands after that, then it is an issue whether or not it should stay or come down but to say "ohh poor me, the maintenance costs" like it is an unexpected burden is just a plain lie.

remember we sued NYS to take care of their own buildings (Richardson Complex) and won. Maintenance is a price hat comes along with the right to own property.

And after talking to several people who live and work near some of the new vinyl victorians I can say they would have prefered it rebuilt differently. The people that move in are ellitiest's who isolate themselves and their resources from the community. They probably do as much good for the neighborhood as the cape cods in Tonawanda...

Sbrof, I totally agree with you. I just wanted the opinion of someone from that neighborhood as to which is the lesser of 2 evils. IMHO, Vinyl victorians are like vegetarian chicken wings. Might look like it from a distance, but it just ain't the real deal.

Another dumping ground for tires, broken bottles, and so on?

Marilyn R. is absolutely right. And I am too. (I had the same idea last week but didn't know who or where to tell it !!) Vacate the Broadway Barn -- move out all the trucks and tools to a less visible (desirable?) location. I was over at the Michigan Ave. 'Underground' area and was impressed with what's been done/to come. It's so close to downtown too. The Barn trucks/tools are an eyesore to the emerging---yes I know...vinyl Victorian/suburban type---neighborhood. Even if no move is possible, the City MUST put up/in better fencing/landscaping to shield the view of the trucks/tools from the street. Right now the fence is a shredded mess. THEN the neighborhood residents MUST get busy and beautify the medians (Clinton, William, etc.) that lie outside their new front doors.

Oh, I heard that they were tearing down City Hall next week, followed by the Guarantee building the week after that. Oh, and dont forget next months major demo, the Lafayette Square building! TEAR IT DOWN! TEAR IT DOWN! TEAR IT DOWN!

I cant stand it anymore. STOP tearing things down, until we have another plan in place. If they were going to build a skyscraper, or major residential complex, or urban retail center, FINE, take it down; but there is NO PLAN.... I freaking cant deal with this anymore

That was the deal with most of the current empty spaces downtown today. Instead of sealing up an empty building, or keeping the businesses inside the older ones, the city decided to tear most of them down (including knocking ones that still had retail and offices inside them) just to make way for New Builts which 30+ years later, it's slowly happening. Are we still making this mistake today?

Nobody on that side of town gives a s@%t, noone is going to clean it up, and lastly they dont want to be there, they are forced to live there.

Forced to live there. Oh yeah, I forgot it's surrounded by 12 foot cyclone fencing topped with razor wire. Some people do give a s#@t, and are trying to improve it.

Asshat.

I must be hallucinating, but did someone refer to this Buffalo Forge plant as architecture? What category of architecture does it fall under?

It's an old dilpidated factory that was added onto many times over the years and had no future.

Anyone who views this building as worth saving, is just arguing for the sake of it. If you really believe in this neighborhood and site so much, get your checkbook out, find the property owner and develop, develop, develop.

One other thought...if this was such a jewel that is near and dear to the heart, why not get out there and protest the demolition or take other action. Why wait until it is 3/4 of the way down and then proclaim it to be on par with the Larkin building being demolished.

One more take on the "Broadway Barn"... before there was "The Aud", there was the old Broadway Auditorium where hockey was played and boxing matches were staged. Like MastenFerry and Jefferson/Best, for old time sports fans these are hallowed grounds indeed!

The Broadway Auditorium was formerly the 65th Regiment's Armory and there still stands a wall with ammunition holes. I've been doing some research and it's unbelievable what we can uncover for tourism along the revitalized Michigan Avenue Corridor. All part of the Ellicott District Heritage Crescent.....but more about that later......

I polled all 19 residents of East Buffalo, and they were ok with this demo. Let's move on to the next building of the day.

sbrof...

There's actually room here for twice as many "vinyl victorians" as you imagine...

/sarcasm off...

Seems like we're still feeling our way through. Managing the decline of the City is not easy and requires more effective measures, a higher degree of transparency, bench-marks and reasonable metrics that have yet to evolve.

In this specific case - the 'Buffalo Forge' demolition - the building's owners are paying for the demolition. Not the case, over here at 669 Genesee Street - a colossal cluster-f*ck. Another taxpayer funded demolition. And the question is still open whether the current owner of Transfiguration Church - Sycamore and Mills - will pay, or by default have "us" pay.

Ken:

Factories are architecture. Barns are architecture. Firehouses are architecture. Elementary schools are architecture. Gas stations are architecture. Grain elevators are architecture. Storefronts are architecture. Town halls are architecture. Ice cream stands are architecture. Even big box retail stores are architecture.

The question is what kind of architecture are they and do they add or detract from our city?

Did you think that only the mansions and churches of the rich qualify as "architecture?"

Backspace...Okay I'll rephrase my question very simply...is this factory building worth saving? If you saw it before it was in this partially demolished state, you would have a hard time justifying that it should stand as is.

Is everything gone that is in the photo or does the taller building remain? The taller one looks like it might be worth keeping. As I understand, the part that is shown being taken down was in a very sad state. While it would be nice to keep the building that air conditioning was invented in, I would not liken it to the loss of the Larkin admin bldg. People were never going to flock to Buffalo to see the plant where a/c was invented. There are a lot of buildings in Buffalo that have some historical significance. A lot of these buildings are now gone. Buffalo was much more a city of stone castles, rather than cubist drug stores with fake spray on facades. n Wanna see what I mean? Take a look at this - http://imagesofwny.com/gallery/album05 Some of these are still around, most are gone. I would love to see some of these rebuilt, but I know it will never happen. Perhaps future construction could acknowledge our cities past and give it a thoughtful nod via design. n one can dream.

ALLONS!!!

Zombo...

additional pictures at 6 or no later than 11...

Actually, this area (Buffalo Forge) has been designated for new builds - the money in place, etc.

Just say no............ to newbuilds!

stay tuned for demo pics and slide show - at 11pm...excellent "urban prairie" pics from right next door, too!

All we are saying is...."rehab rocks...no more vinyl victorians..."

WTF..I am so confused...

You complain that the building is being torn down, yet no one except the homeless and drug dealers found a use for it for 12 years. It is torn down and you complain that it should have been left standing, as a vacant factory, for however long it takes to find someone interested in it, perhaps another 12 years.

When it is torn down, you complain about it being a vacant lot. You say that it is part of the 'Urban Prairie", and that something should be built, but when proposed, the buildings aren't up to your standards.

I am not sure what you expect to be built on the East Side of Buffalo, but the area is currently a low-income slum. You can dream all you want about it being a middle-income area like Elmwood, but I bet you would be hard pressed to find people willing to move there.

What is wrong with the "Urban Prairie"? What is wrong with the "Vinyl Victorians"?

What do you propose someone (not you obviously) builds instead of houses? What do you believe will thrive in this area of the city? An area that is so full of vacant buildings, store fronts and homes that bodies decay for years before anyone noticed the smell in the neighborhood?

I am curious, what do you propose as an alternative? What type of house should be built? And what sort of rehab should the city have paid for to make you happy?

I honestly don't know what needs to be done to the East Side, the changes that are underway obviously conflict with your agenda. Do you care to share this agenda.

BTW.. this isn't pointed at anyone in particular... please feel free to answer if you feel that it applies to your ideas, comments or agenda.

Too Late,

I'm not complaining that the place is being demolished. I believe a few people gave a solid effort in trying to rehab the space in the last few years, don't know those specifics.

I'm on board with you, presumably, that "we" can't save everything. Which is really fine with me. The rub is that there is no comprehensive plan, transparency or evolving set of metrics - anywhere, in Buffalo - to evaluate existing housing stock and examine and market its re-use.

I bought one that could have been demolished 10 years ago - near eastside row house - and am working on another one adjacent to it - and do not have the means or desire - to take on any additional projects. Should this preclude me from criticizing the cluster-f*ked planning and full speed ahead with demolitions? Good, I didn't think so.

New builds or as I've dubbed - vinyl victorians - arrive freshly photo-shopped with all sorts of costs never integrated into the price tag of the house. Some developers, and CDC's are able to leverage and construct these "vinyl villages" all over the City's east side.

I'm not in favor of heavily subsidized projects like these. Successful retail has rarely followed these suburban homes that often are placed on the very commercial strips - like Buffalo Forge site - leaving no place for retail to follow in the traditional retail corridor.

Solutions may include:

1. Revolving loan fund to assist people in finding $ to rehab existing structures. Many of these - as I've just featured in my blog at 115 Northampton - are owned by the City and occupy very unique spots in a neighborhood's urban landscape.

2. Rehab avoids un-necessary tax payer financed demolitions.

3. City's website could easily have links to City owned real estate. Private brokers do it with pics and as you know all sorts of downloadable information. not rocket science.

4. City sponsored urban homesteading program. Has been done in years. Why? Could it be that 'political class' wants to carve out development zones for certain politically connected developers and CDC's.

Continuing with - let's call it the Vinyl Strategy - is changing the way the City looks and feels. Rehab, the more conservative strategy - sort of ironic, I know - maintains the unique urban character of our City. It costs less, too.

What's not to like about that?

Managing our City's decline with vinyl is not a long term solution. Above all else, as I've already said, transparency, comprehensive planning and a solid set of metrics to evaluate results should be on the table. It's not. Why?

too late...excellent post!

too late,

David beat me to the punch on the "vinyl victorian" theory. Basically these new homes do not reflect urban character, are quite temporary solutions and are often built on what was the retail and commerical corridors in the East Side. Worst of all is how much valuable public money is wasted on these projects. They are not a cheap solution.

David has a great example on his website that depicts just how temporary and expensive "vinyl victorians" can be. Go the following address and scroll midway down to an article titled "Vinyl Dreams."

http://fixbuffalo.blogspot.com/2006_09_01_fixbuffalo_archive.html

David and Apollo,

Thank you for your explanations of the 'Vinyl Victorians' on the East Side. I understand that they are not characteristic of pre-existing East Side housing, and that other building materials could have been used for construction. That said, isn't the City responsible for approving the building permits for these houses? Do they consider the materials (brick, wood, vinyl, stucco, etc) in the building plan, or are builders just given full reign in the city?

I am still wondering what should be built in the area vacated by the forge? Are you proposing a mixed-use development? What would that do for the dozens of vacant store fronts in the area? Should we just let this sit and wait for Walmart to show interest in it (like they have done in Detroit and Dayton)?

Rehab hasn't worked for most of these buildings. It is a good dream, but the impetus for development just isn't there yet. \

I am genuinely frustrated with the 'johnny come lately' moves made by some of the local groups and preservationists. As a former East Side business owner and longtime resident, it frustrates me to watch them worry about a vacant, rat infested dungeon of a building, while existing businesses struggle for the basics. The money spent on 'mothballing' these buildings could be used to help business owners with repairs to their buildings, with vandalism clean-up, with securing their windows and doors. It pained me to turn off the lights after being in business for 10 years, but there was no help or hope. The City does not help private business owners, especially ones with shallow pockets.

It seems that we are putting the real East Side on ice and under dirt until the city becomes trendy again. What does that do for the current residents. I watch the neighborhood children as they walk past my house every morning. I worry that one of them will be found in one of the 9 vacant houses on my street or one of the many vacant buildings that lines their pathway to school.

I am also worried that somebody will step in and interfere with the demolition of the Glenny Drive projects. That someone will say, "let's convert them into mixed-use residential lofts". It is sites like these that keep the East Side in poverty. I try my best to keep my neighborhood in check. I mow four lawns on my street every week, just to keep up appearances, my neighbors and I check on our other neigbors every chance we get. We are trying to hold it together.

The truth hits us like cold water every day. Artspace and the new 'midtown' developments are not for us. They are not intended for the East Side residents, we will be allowed to stay for as long as we want, as long as we don't interfere with the new neigbors. For me, a neighborhood of vinyl victorians is better than a vacant building, vacant lots are better than vacant buildings, and new neighbors are better than broken promises and lofty dreams.

Please let me know what you suggest we build in these spaces?

David, I want to tell you that I have read your website and have followed your campaigns around Woodlawn for some time. We are on the same page most of the time, I admire your passion and perseverance. Please don't take my frustration as a condemnation of your work or actions. Our entire neighborhood respects you for the torch you carry for all of us.

Photo from the site, taken today

http://flickr.com/photos/sayvanderlay/242807756/

The demolition is a good thing for the neighborhood.

I would be willing to bet most of you who are decrying the woeful vinyl siding houses, do not live in the immediate area. Take a look at the kinds playing baseketball in the shadows of this building. Would they be better off with 1) a decaying, abandoned monstrosity next to their playground, or 2) a block of new homes, albeit, ones that are not up to your own urban pseudo-intellectual tastes?

too late,

First off I agree with you that everything cannot be saved, the Buffalo Forge Site included. You pose a very perplexing question concerning what to do with vacant sites on the East Side.

I honestly do not know the answer, but I vehemently oppose putting up "vinyl victorians" at the Buffalo Forge site and other random sites (notice how the city scatters them all over the place). My main opposition is not based on aesthetics, but on practicality, return on investment and past history.

If you haven't had a chance to check out the article I pointed out on David's website, I encourage you do so. Also check out buffalo.com's realty listings on the East Side and you will find numerous "Vinyl Victorians" built within the past 20 years that are selling not only well below the original cost to build them, but the original purchase price as well. The neighborhoods where they are built struggle as badly as before. People are fleeing them as quickly as the "old stock" of homes. Quite simply the "vinyl victorians" have (not suprisingly) proved to be a failure.

The reason for this is new houses do not fix the East Side's fundamental problems of poor schools, high crime, poverty-laden (often unemployed) residents, etc. These are much deeper issues. The government (at all levels) still doesn't understand that problems do not go away simply because they throw money at them.

I guess my short-term answer to your question would be "nothing." Perhaps meticulously maintaining and landscaping these areas would be a cost-effective temporary solution. Maybe some courts or playgrounds. The long-term solution is complex and perplexing.

To be honest, the best hope may be the slow gentrification from midtown and downtown. In the meantime the area should be preserved and maintained as best as possible (i.e. trying to prevent decay of homes, greater crackdown on crime.) There are no easy answers to solving the poverty-driven problems of the East Side.

I want to see the East Side rise up, but funneling millions into "Vinyl Victorians" has done nothing to help the area in the past, and I doubt it will in the future.

pics and post from Buffalo Forge...

Say...

The question is what's the highest and best use for this land? It's our biggest asset. And just because I live 10 blocks away doesn't mean I don't have a say. Transparency? Or three men in a room? Your position, while attempting to attack what you label as "pseudo" is rather disingenuous.

toolate...

build nothing. wait. landbank. triage. wait. repeat.

Timing is everything. We'll bounce back. Yet if "we" build subsidized "vinyl victorians" in a suburban style cul-de-sac development in City with an ever increasingly larger diaspora, we lose. We lose the options we would have had for commercial development. Last time I checked that means one thing, jobs.

David

You obviously do live in the neighborhood. So, at the end of the day, you definitely should have more say in it than i do. I just drive past it twice a day. Apollo mentioned article on your site, could one of you pls provide a link?

Again, I just look at the kids in the playground, and wonder what's best for them - adandoned factory, or ugly houses that, at least, are bringing new homeowners to the area.

Say...

I don't think anyone here is opposing the demolition. If they are, they haven't said so. I think it's a good thing especially compared to the tax payer funded ones that are going on as we type - 669 Genesee and Schaeffer Brewery on Niagara - two Cluster F*cks.

The question is a long term one. Not one that should be settled by dolling out favors to BB's supporters. The process here should be more transparent.

Here's the Vinyl Dreams link Apollo mentioned.

When redevelopment occurs in any city large amounts of land are looked at...Not a vacant lot here and there,If the site is shovel ready all the better,I agree newbuilds are not the answer..They may be in the future but right now they are not,We are simply emptying one house to fill another, We need economic development and strategic planning.We should preserve what is worth preserving( This brick building was worth preserving Im sure at one time and is now in the "demolition by neglect book' ) sadly it seems sometimes we dont learn from our mistakes

Good conversation and the problem is a long term one. After all it took us 40 years to get here it is not going to change in 5 or 10.

The Vinyl Victorian's seem to have taken the conversation and to that I will add my 2 cents. While I do not currently live on the East Side I did grow up there albeit a different neighborhood than this one. The problem I see with they new builds is who they are trying to cater too.

They are publicly funded construction projects that hope to bring in middle income people because they think they are providing what people want... suburban buildings but no one who wants a suburban house and lifestyle is going to move anywhere into the city, no even north buffalo. We are trying to be something that we are not and we can't compete on their terms. We have tried, parking lots, highways demolitions and strip plazas all trying to be and compete directly with suburbs and the main problem with this is we have demolished our history and diluted our identity in the process.

If people have a reason to be proud they will be. If they can get the same anywhere else they will do just that. That is the psychological reasons I don't like this movement. Another is quality of housing. These buildings build on taxpayer's money by developers are in no way constructed for long term habitation.

Most of them have problems before they are even finished because of shoddy workmanship and construction materials. While the maintenance free vinyl might look ok for 10-15 years the insides deteriorate much faster, as opposed to buildings and homes that have been providing a good home for 50+ years already. They are not long term structures. They are not built for buffalo and our climate and will not last as long as they should for the investment we all are putting into them.

I would rather see the city build half as many structure but put in twice as much time and energy into them. At least with quality homes, they have a chance to weather the tests of time and appeal to something more than suburban wanna bees.

sbrof...

well said

The shoddy construction of these homes is a major issue and should be addressed before any more get built.

I am not sure though where the problem is with the vinyl siding or the style of the house. They look great compared to the run down houses on adjacent streets. What do you want the exterior of these houses to be? Most people want maintenance free exteriors whether you live in the city, suburbs or country. Do you propose putting brick on them? Can the target buyers afford this extra cost?

Id like to see a high density urban office/light industrial park finally built in the city at the site of Buffalo Forge.

No more housing!

We want jobs! JOBS! In case politicians and urban planners cant hear ..... our urban fabric needs jobs!

This would even be the perfect site for HSBCs new Data Warehouse Facility. Why cant we just replace industry with 21st century industry?

Come on people use your heads....no more suburban office parks....bring the light industrial and office park developers back into our inner city neighborhoods!

I wasn't aware of the city building cul-de-sac style streets in the area formerly occupied by the forge. I just thought that they were going to replicate the houses that they built along Seneca and Michigan.

I can tell you that the house that I currently live in is no masterpiece, the construction of a lot of the houses in this part of the city was shoddy at best. In fact, there is a wall of my house that was built out of pallet wood and packing crates. It is still standing and holds out the weather fairly well.

David, Apollo and Sbrof, you all make very compelling and logical arguments. I know that I can be an aging cranky curmudgeon sometimes and it takes your passion to help me see all the sides of the issues. I am going to talk to my neighbors as soon as it stops raining (maybe this weekend) to discuss the plans for the forge. We may not be rich but we've been here awhile and know the right mothers, aunts and fathers, if you know what I mean.

B, from my understanding the site of the forge would be the last place that HSBC would want to put the new building. It needs to be removed from the existing buildings in case something terrible happens. It is all about business continuity and planning, I guess. On that note maybe we could petition the federal government to move some of the department of defense contracts to Buffalo. They have all their eggs in one basket (it is a 30 mile basket) near Washington. All spending stays there, I know I used to work for one of these contractors. The average salaries are near the 6 figures, imagine what that would do for the East Side.