Buffalo Rising Online

Yes, same with Denver - a thriving pedestrian mall downtown. It had more to do with the local economy and the density of housing then whether there are cars driving down Main Street. And both Minn. and Denver are cold weather cities so clearly it's not weather related.

Is Minneapolis an indoor pedestrian mall? Or am I thinking of another city that actually has the street covered by glass to keep folks out of the "the elements" I am not suggesting an indoor pedestrian mall for Buffalo because the cost would be insane and there are other better things to be done with that amount of money (waterfront). I agree that providing residential opportunity on Main St. should be priority #1. If enough people live DT maybe vehicle traffic won't be necessary but for now I think rail and roads together is the best idea.

I've been to MPLS many times and I too am impressed with the success of the Nicollet mall. Even more impressive especially during the COLD Twin Cities winters) is the downtown network of connecting bridges and overpasses that allow workers and residents indoor access to much of downtown, including many shops, restaurants, hotels, etc. Many aspects of downtown MPLS could indeed serve as models for redeveloping Buffalo.

I agree, I do not see how cars will make any difference. More houseing [for a few thousan not hundred] and destination spots to increase density will help downtown. If they want cars they should wait and see what Main Street is like once the many, MANY empty building are revitalized on Main and surrounding streets. Denver, Miami etc all have busy functioning pedestrian malls. At the moment opening up Main will just give the office workers another escape route other than Franklin at 5pm.

nyc--

I was actually going to comment on Denver as an example of what _not_ to do. Maybe it was the time that I was there, but I thought the pedestrian mall in Denver was just horrible. It did certainly have more retail than our main street, but most of it was closed (this was a Sunday afternoon) The only people out were...well, not the kind of people who would be visiting those establishments anyway. I really got the impression that the only people who used the pedestrian mall would be people who drove in from the suburbs to work in their office downtown, then went out to lunch there. Nobody was there on the weekend and the city felt very un-livable.

SLEEPL8 -

I think you might be thinking of Duluth, MN, which has indoor pedestrian walkways on its main downtown street. It might be comparable to our main street, but most of the good bars/restaurants in Duluth are across the highway on the waterfront Canal Park.

SLEEPL8, see my earlier post. You actually are thinking of the overhead walkway network in downtown MPLS. Nicollet Mall is a street level ped mall similar to Buffalo's (but with thriving businesses every block).

Traffic or not, Main Street down town will not work if there is no reason to go there. The shops are almost non-existent (and no, CVS is not a destination), the eateries and drink shops the same. Chippewa, Allen, Elmwood all work because there is stuff to see, shop, eat and drink. Main Place Mall is a dump and offers nothing to potential shoppers. Get some real businesses downtown (and Starbucks would be OK, don't beat them up because they are not local) and the people will follow.

Traffic or not, Main Street down town will not work if there is no reason to go there. The shops are almost non-existent (and no, CVS is not a destination), the eateries and drink shops the same. Chippewa, Allen, Elmwood all work because there is stuff to see, shop, eat and drink. Main Place Mall is a dump and offers nothing to potential shoppers. Get some real businesses downtown (and Starbucks would be OK, don't beat them up because they are not local) and the people will follow.

GTsnowracer> I really got the impression that the only people who used the pedestrian mall would be people who drove in from the suburbs to work in their office downtown, then went out to lunch there. Nobody was there on the weekend and the city felt very un-livable.

I lived in Denver for four years, and what you wrote about that city's downtown, and its livability, is certainly not true. Yes, there were homeless teens on the mall (mostly in a plaza a few blocks east of Larimer Square), but they were far outnumbered by most others. The mall has a good deal of pedestrian traffic day and night throughout the week, except maybe for late on Sunday. Buskers and drum circles aplenty, too. It's a regional destination, but then again downtown Denver is surrounded on three sides by prosperous or gentrifying residential areas. Unlike the majority of cities in the US, the city of Denver is more affluent than its surrounding suburbs. Denver's population is also very young, educated, and active.

With dry, sunny weather throughout most of the year, and mild winters (except for the occasional blizzard), Denver's 16th Street Mall is a natural draw. Pedestrian malls in nearby Boulder and Fort Collins are also crowded and full of street life.

Check out denverinfill.com/subpages_special_topics/16th_street_mall.htm , for what the mall is like on a SATURDAY.

I think that people in Buffalo have the chicken and the egg reversed. It is't that there is no retail on Main because of the pedestrian mall. The pedestrian mall is not successful because there is no retail. And there is no retail because of the economy and shifts in retail trends/consolidition in the industry.

One factor to consider in these comparisons is the size of the metropolitan area. Both Denver and Minneapolis are several times larger than Buffalo. They are wealthier, have more downtown residents and home to more business. This cycle feeds off itself and in-turn brings retail. Buffalo needs to grow its economy and downtown resident base before much good will come to Main.

I, too, visited the pedestrian mall on a recent Saturday. It was a forlorn and vaguely menacing experience. The metrorail stations are dated, rusted and becoming decrepit. Seeing the trains roll down the street was very cool though, and added a uniqueness to the experience; something I don't think cars would do. The streets parallel to Main certainly were not overflowing with traffic. Rather than bringing cars back I think the city should focus on improving the streetscape., modernizing the stations and planting trees, flowers and grass instead of the painted asphalt that is currently there. If cars were already there I wouldn't advocate removing them but I just don't think it is money well spent on bringing them back.

The Mall did not cause the decline of Main Street (though it might have pushed it along a bit) But the Mall will prevent it form ever coming back. Main Street right now is out of sight out of mind to most people and that means death to most retail.

Chicago had a buses only mall on State Street that was removed about 10 years ago. It was a miserable failure. State Street today is packed with people.

I never liked the much ballyhooed downtown mall on State Street in Ithaca. Every time I visit there are a ton of vacancies, and the overall quality of the stores is not great. You can't have open a nice coffee shop because nobody in a hurry going to work is going to park their car in a garage, feed the meter, and walk to the shop, especially in bad weather. And the mall attracts vagrants like flies.

Ithaca would be better off opening the street and creating diagonal parking (probably a couple of hundred spaces). On spring, summer and fall weekends, they could close off State Street to cars and have festival days, just like they do in New York City. Buffalo could do the same.

only high density can make a successful pedestrian mall. Minneapolis' city population is in the millions and has a rather strong downtown core so its much easier to pull it off same with miami and denver obviously...but the fact that it does have one proves that its not the weather that is holding buffalo's main street back.

buffalo doesn't have the density to pull off a pedestrian mall. cars won't cure it but it will make it slightly more appealing to potential retail establishments.

Nicolett mall in downtown Minneapolis was only slightly less dead than main place mall last time I was there on business. I just don't think you can conceptualize what a vibrant downtown is like, if your expeience is limited to Buffalo and Minneapolis, or Denver for that matter. Match those towns to Philadelphia, Boston, New York, Chicago, San Francisco, or Seattle.

I've said this for a long time, but take a portion of the ridiculous $50 million plus that is going to be spent on returning cars to Main Street and give it to businesses to open on Main Street and you would have a thriving scene on the pedestrian mall. Cars are not going to change a thing on Main Street downtown.

Minneapolis St Paul has a regional government or at least a tax sharing structure. This means that those people who run away from the city are still supporting it. This dissuades people from running away from problems and actually forces them to fix them because in the end you are still going to have to pay.. HUGE difference than Buffalo which was left to fend for itself and basically became the teet which the region sucked the life out of.

The pedestrian mall in buffalo is NOT the reason businesses and people left. It was the lack of continued investment, the fleeing of tax payer dollars. Sorry but cars are no the solution. Look at Main Street north of the mall, even worse conditions all the way to the University District or Pearl, Genesee, Ellicott, Washington, Boradway, Walden, Sycamore.. all these roads have cars none of them are thriving... the missing link is people living downtown and a region that doesn't rob peter to pay paul.

What our mall needs is a little reworking not a deconstruction. Bring back ALL the cross streets so people can get dropped of at the corner of the block they want to go to. This would alleviate 90% of the car issues. As soon as you bring access to the front door of an establishment people are going to complain because they can't park there putting demand on businesses and institutions to demolish their neighbor to serve themselves. Just wait and see. as soon as cars come back to main the next thing those businesses will complain about is parking close parking.

It is a downtown, a city, you park and walk. Nobody who wants to park in front of their store would ever venture downtown when they could already go to a suburban location for the same stuff.

Also those huge ugly transit stations need to go. They are visual blockades of the street.

next bring the buses down main. they should have access to Main Street and would increase the life for any businesses. look at the North Division / South Division buss turn around. Probably the busiest place in all of downtown.

Lastly we need to continue to build density of people in and near downtown. We need students, workers and residents. only then will retail come back. Cars don't bring in retail, money and people do.

If Canalside happens, the waterfront would become a significant pedestrian area. That would have a bigger impact on Main Street then would returning cars. In fact it should be made as easy as possible to park in a garage at canalside and travel up main street to the theater district or elsewhere by metrorail. I would not want to see metro rail sevice diminished or made less convienent just at a time when we are putting significant retail and parking at one end of the fare free zone. It could benefit the entire Main Street Corridor if it was percived as an easy link. I could imagine parking right off the 1-90 in a garage associated with canalside, shopping there, and then taking free metrorail uptown to the theater district to have dinner. Concentrate parking at canalside and use metrorail to allow access to all of downtown for retail and entertainment purposes, with Canalside at the core. There is a nice logic to the way Main Street is organized and Buffalo should take advantage of it.

There's traffic at Main and Virginia, but the first floor retail of the Granitework's remains empty. Further, as gas goes ever higher, any solution dependent on driving seems a bit, well, out of touch with our current circumstance. Putting traffic back on Main might help, but it smells of politicians grasping at a 'let's just do something' solution. Problems on Main (and with Buffalo more generally) may have worsened during the time period that cars were removed from Main, suggesting causation however, I think we'd all agree, is a little too simplistic.

The future of Main st. is as clear as the picture associated with this post...

Main st, as well as all of the other problems Buffalo faces, can be solved with the removal of three things:

1. Unions 2. High Taxes 3. Inefficient Politicians

Radical idea ... a sales tax-free zone for retail uses downtown.

Naaaah. It'd never happen.

Radical idea ... a sales tax-free zone for retail uses downtown.

Naaaah. It'd never happen. They could never give up the 8% from wig sales.

Agreed but 50 mill could change the stations, reconnect the roads and still have money left over to fill in some gap financing to renovate the graystone / 500 blocks etc... The problem isn't the lack of money it is wasting money to pretty up a street when we should be spending money where the end results have a better potential to spur / attract business.

We need to reconnect the sidestreets in Buffalo. There are currently several deadzones in the city thanks to the Main place mall, the convention center and the Hyatt. Why would our leaders ever agree to sell off our streets to the highest bidder? I think that these mistakes should be thought of as another factor for the failure of the downtown mall. Also wasn't the pedestrian mall once apart of a even greater plan to bring lightrail to the suburbs and make it convenient to shop and work downtown? This never happened unless you think of the UB south campus as the suburbs so should we really be surprised that the benefits our leaders promised at the time never materialized? And as for the current light-rail system especially currently during the high gas times I think a total rehab of the entire system including all of the stations and surrounding areas along with maybe the addition of a few more stations along the current line would do wonders for increasing ridership. The NFTA needs to come up with a plan which included new schedules to reflect the changing downtown. This article really opened my eyes as to the absurdity of blaming a pedestrian mall for the death of main street. MAybe main place and the convention center played a role but the pedestrian mall argument cannot really be backed up.

I agree on the $50mil. This is another silver bullet to save Main St. Do we forget that the Pedestrian Mall was supposed to save it once upon a time? Obviously it was already dieing.

But the $50 Mil into:

1) tax breaks/credit offsets for new new residential mixed use projects along the Mall (rental and condo). Get more people living there and occupying the space on a daily buisness. Offer unique amenities such as roof top patios etc to create something unique.

2) Remove the overly large rail stations that just block the sidewalks and hide everything that is beyond them

3)Open up the cross streets to traffic with only stop signs and maybe some train signs for those too dense to realize on their own not to pull in front of a train.

Give this time to work and push programs that support its success. If after a decade or two it is still deemed that traffic is necessary then try to move on it. I fail to recall any programs to make this thing work from the start. It was built and left there. Liike any product it needs to be marketed, sold, and given incentives to invest around. And like most active urban areas it needs to continue to diversify its offerings (retail, buisness, entertainment, residential, etc.)

I to owould point to Main St north of here. The Automobile has not done it any favors up to this point.

We’re not Minneapolis! The fact is the pedestrian mall here is a failure. 20 plus years is enough. I work downtown. Main Street is a disgrace and an embarrassment. The worst mistake is not fixing a known mistake. Cars back on Main St. now!

I think a part of the argument to bring main street back to cars is to help alleviate the confusion that many drivers feel is downtown. I think that this is a very valid argument but one that could be solved by reconnecting the side streets and finishing the job of removing the one way streets.

Lets take this is steps. Reconnecting the streets, finish making all downtown streets that should be two way - two way again and go from there. Spending such a huge amount of money to get just a reworked street without anything else is just asking to be a pretty flop.

I can picture Main Street open to traffic again with the Metro Rail (Look at Toronto, San Fran that have the trolly system with auto traffic). And a push for more living, commerical, and retail in this area. When we see a change and updated Main Street, it shall spure interests as a "Place to Be" again.

simcoe - i dont know if it was an angel, prophet, magic 8ball, 1st grader, or playing simcity too much when i was young, but all sources point to yes

All this talk may be for nothing because Buffalo is less than a year away from an economic earthquake which very likely will change everything as we know it. What economic earthquake? Well the opening of the Federal Courthouse and the opening of the Buffalo Creek Casino/Hotel Complex.

Once they open the Chippewa vomit district is going to see 2 things happen. First that the new 24hour district is now the area surrounding the Casino. Second that the Chippewa vomit district is to close to the government district....and those businesses will slowly relocate out of the Chippewa District.

Of course the same thing is going to happen with the Convention Center also. There is going to be alot of pressure by Snyder to keep it for the Hyatt but there is going to be even more pressure for it to relocate so the growing government/court district has room to grow possibly for another office building.

Of course the Hyatt would have been wise to follow the Dulski and simply convert to a smaller hotel, along with residences and office space....which is what their going to end up doing anyway.

Lastly comes Main Place Mall one of the biggest problems for downtown Buffalo which can only be solved by demolishing half of it, building a companion tower at the opposite end and reopening some of the streets with pass thrus while the 2nd and 3rd floors quite possibly could be rebuilt

Then of course there are big question marks over at the Statler and an even bigger question over Issas City Tower but save that for another discussion. The point is that downtown as we know it is about to undergo a huge shift which is going to reopen alot of opportunity to rethink downtown and reconnecting the street grid, as well as development opportunities to correct past mistakes.

But so far, we are not connecting the waterfront streets to Niagara Street and we are not reconnecting the downtown grid...people think these designs are good but long term they do not serve the city.

wizardofza> Dan has a good point in his first comment. Downtown Buffalo is almost completely surrounded by low-income neighborhoods and desolate industrial areas.

That, and water. As they say among the retail site selection crowd, "fish don't shop".

Let's compare the surroundings of downtown Denver with Buffalo.

Denver: North: Five Points (small African-American neighborhood that is gentrifying) East: City Park West, Park Hill, Capitol Hill, Cheesman Park (high-density middle and upper income neighborhoods with a very large gay/bohemian/urban professional population) South: CU Denver, gentrifying neighborhoods (Baker, etc) West: LoDo (expensive lofts), Central Platte Valley (expensive lofts), Highlands/West Highlands (post-gentrification affluence)

Buffalo: North: scattered loft apartments, West Village (still struggling), Lower West Side (ouch), Allentown (very slow gentrification) East: Lower East Side (urban prairie/ghetto), First Ward (industrial and lower income residential) South: scattered loft apartments, Buffalo River, vacant land, abandoned grain mills West: Lake Erie, Niagara River

I curse BR's lack of recognition of single carriage returns! Let me try that again

wizardofza> Dan has a good point in his first comment. Downtown Buffalo is almost completely surrounded by low-income neighborhoods and desolate industrial areas.

That, and water. As they say among the retail site selection crowd, "fish don't shop".

Let's compare the surroundings of downtown Denver with Buffalo.

Denver:

North: Five Points (small African-American neighborhood that is gentrifying)

East: City Park West, Park Hill, Capitol Hill, Cheesman Park (high-density middle and upper income neighborhoods with a very large gay/bohemian/urban professional population)

South: CU Denver, gentrifying neighborhoods (Baker, etc)

West: LoDo (expensive lofts), Central Platte Valley (expensive lofts), Highlands/West Highlands (post-gentrification affluence; I bought my very first house in West Highlands in 1999, and could never afford to move back)

Buffalo:

North: scattered loft apartments, West Village (still struggling), Lower West Side (ouch), Allentown (very slow gentrification)

East: Lower East Side (urban prairie/ghetto), First Ward (industrial and lower income residential)

South: scattered loft apartments, Buffalo River, vacant land, abandoned grain mills

West: Waterfront Village (well-off but low population) Lake Erie, Niagara River

how about they spend the money to connect Ub? The lack of traffic is kind of a polite thing, the only problem is that we don't have the critical mass. There are a bunch of projects that should really happen before this one. The Genesee block, the 500 block,dulski-issa block, the courthouse,the casino, heck.. even the inner harbor. It just seems like this kind of change is premature. If people don't shop because they can't get there, well how strong is there interest anyway?

Thank You!!! I have been discouraged for years, thinking that I was the only one out there that thought it was crazy to think that Main St. being a pedestrian mall was the death of downtown Buffalo. Train, or no train on Main St., downtown would be at the same place it is today...either way. Why invest millions to return cars to Main St? Why not invest those millions on cleaning up the architectural gems along Main St., and providing grants to developers to allow commercial and residential uses for all of the empty buildings that line Main St. Success breeds success, and this would surely lead to spin off development in the surrounding blocks! Build the momentum by using the money wisely!

I've been to Nicolet Pedestrian Mall in Minneapolis, and it is a huge success. Probably not because of the pedestrian mall, but certainly not in spite of it!

Main Street NEEDS some sort of activity on a daily bases to attract people there. Promote to Street venders (selling other things besides hot dogs like Pretzels, t-shirts, etc.), street performers (daily- playing instruments, doing tricks, etc.) Invest and give deals for RETAIL Business in some of the empty store fronts and create a "destination" somewhere along Main Street to spur an interest for MORE retail. I see we already have a few new retail stores popping up (GREAT!), but more is needed and especially in one area with an Anchor Store (Borders, Gap, Macy's, H&M, or something) and then watch it spread.

there is still no "critical mass" downtown to promote main st.

Rocco's Main st. Loft project would had been a huge catalyst for the city, but I believe the city drove him away.

Very simple, bring more people to the core of the city and you will have shopping on Main regardless of traffic.

gausted, you should listen to the WBFO this week, Rocco talks about his Main street project. It isn't dead (yet) but a major institution that used to provide the Gap financing needed because of Buffalo Rent prices is pulling its funding from such projects because of the Subprime problems.

50 million dollars could go a LONG WAY in filling in the gap needed for his and many other projects around downtown to create that density of people and money that would eventually lead to more retail. spending money to make one of the already best maintained roads in the area slightly more accessible is a waste or money.

1) The casino will not become the 24hour district. Maybe within the compound itself, but do not expect any new builds going up around it filling with bars etc. Chippawa happened because of th ethe cheap old buildings already here. These do not exist around the casino site. only surface lots do.

2) How does the new coart house moving across Niagara Sq affect Chippawa negatively? It does not. If anything maybe being a block closer gives more lunch time crowd hope.

3) The economy right now and State budget are the worse they have been in a long time. There was no hope for a new convention center in the better times. It sure as hell will not be happnening any time soon.

Why lay $50mil into infrastrucutre that has has proven to not help at all north of here where cars are still allowed, or two didn't help stop the death in the first place when it could be used instead to 1) connect Metro Rail directly to a population of 40,000 on the North Campus and/or 2) provide incentives to directly create the development we are hoping for indirectly by bringing the cars back?

The whole EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) that was done for the LRRT in the late 1970s completely neglected the impact that the construction of this project would have on downtown. People have to realize at the time construction started on this, wholesale retailers, such as the Nemmer Building which was the Ramour & Flanigan of the day had a showroom and storefront on the ground level, and warehouse and storage of everything above it. No access for people to pull up and get their goods really killed the establishment, not to mention the changing economic climate and the effects of suburbanization that the city was enduring. Businesses will ultimately close if there are no customers, and frankly during the time of that massive project, was there anyone really wanting to deal with the mess going on? We have to look at ways to recover, and i completely agree with Delia, you need all modes of transit available, not just a single one. Elmwood thrive because there is room for pedestrians, cars, bikes, etc.. Main Street does not thrive because of access, and the way streets were reconfigured into one ways, certainly did not help. I think what the Main Place Mall is currently doing, in regards to blatantly turning everything into shit office space is atrocious. There is too much hard pavement and not enough streetscape amenities - lack of green, signage, palces for people to sit and stay awhile. Someone mentioned Fremont in Vegas, and its correct, the undesirables are everywhere, and for the most part make an attempt at getting your attention and then move on - get over them. Returning cars back to Main Street is not a waste of money at all, while they're at it, take those awful white arcs that are every thousand feet down as well, they are very unappealing. Turning things around on Main is not that hard of an obstacle, we need better collaboration and dialog with people who really give a damn, and they are out there, but simply cant make the meetings at 10am on a work day!