"The point is that a majority of jobs in the area come from government and we have several people living off the system"

So our state gov't giving a monopoly on a high stakes gaming to a sovergn government is not gov't based jobs? Seems even less efficient form of taxation than the primary gov't doing it themselves.

I am not against casinos. I am against ones based on a monopoly given to a sovern nation. Add to that one that can build anything else on-site tax free. So we need to get around the state constitution, fine. Give them the casino rights but they want to add a hotel? build it on a non-sovergn portion of land next to this. Maybe then someone will build another hotel there too that can then compete in some form. Want restuarants? build them on a non-sovergn portion of the land. Let other restuarants build there to and connect. Etc, etc.

Any chance this website can be upgraded to run on more than a 1980's vintage PC? The double posting because you don't know whether your comment has been accepted is worse than watching paint dry.!

PS Not to mention how long it takes to login.

the niagara falls spin-off you mention - it's state funded.

yes there are new jobs but no appreciable difference between the niagara falls you see today and the one before the casino. The senecas hold all the cards. The state never intended the casinos to be the linchpin for redevelopment, just a money pipeline to state coffers. That is what pisses me off the most, they could have made more of it. I am not arging against gambling and believe me I have written letters.

yeah but then they would win over enough people to convince that the project would make a difference. If they wanted to build this thing, they had to make it address multiple fronts, not just their bottom line and some baseless assumption that it will spur development in Buffalo. As is, it's designed to insulate itself from the city. Not even the smallest gesture is made to show they give a damn about the context. Nothing would come of this project just like absolutely nothing has come of the Niagara Falls Casino.

and burgeoning does not inply a fully developed waterfront as in your examples. It implies the beginning...which is appropriate.

HankN... the old Post office building and the Jefferson. Find me a handful of historic buildings in NF that have been remodeled b/c of the casino and I'll rescind this comment.

Correct.. the Crowne plaza was funded by the state, as is the NF meeting/convention center (managed by Sentry Hospitality)

The casinos are definately part of a larger puzzle in Niagara Falls, Ontario. Its funny that they're owned by the government and it seems as if a large percentage of the profits are poured directly back into the city. Whether its in infrastructure or welfare (not getting into that one).. the gov't on Ontario puts money into the city of NF. The state of ny.. DOESN'T.

One negative thing that needs to be mentioned about NF, ONT. is that they do quite fantastic in the summer time/busy season.. but thats it. With their growth plans and changes in the skyline (i.e. thousands of more hotel rooms) they're going to come to the realization that you can't have a destination based solely on gambling, which isn't so in Vegas. Their slow season gets progessively slower every year b/c its nF ont. has one purpose and no variety. I would hate to see what they have oveer there on our side as well.

GDC... when u look at those corny ass haunted houses and the glitz and glam of their "vegasizied" Timmy ho's and Arbys. Is the first word that comes to your mind "virbrant"?? If I ever saw anything resembling Clifton Hill in Buffalo I would leave and never come back.

..If theres to be development on Buffalo waterfront let's try and avoid the "Clifton Hill/Times Square" Syndrome and think a little more Fannueil Hall or Magnificent Mile. Buffalo has got so much more class than that.

"By the way...you put a casino here, Buffalo will take off."

Just like Niagara Falls?

sony- Yeah, "Misguided obstructionists need to pay a price" because we can't have citizens challenging the politicans and profiteers that have done such a great job here in western new york.

It seems to me that there are many people with very strong opinions which is completely in their right however it also appears that very few of these people do much 'acting' on these opinions. Perhaps Carl Paladino has earned the right to voice his opinion a bit louder than most, why? because he puts his money where his mouth is and he actually 'does' something other than just talk or complain. Whether you agree with the guy or not he not only wants a better Buffalo but he is doing thngs to create a better buffalo, which I suppose is more than most of us can say. Do we all have to agree on every business that opens up in Buffalo? of course not. The numerous big and small businesses that open up daily in Buffalo will ultimately make the difference, they will shape the future of buffalo. They are pouring the sweat and tears into making this a more beautiful place to live, they are using that energy to do something positive, whether we all like it or not, we don't have to agree upon everything. One thing I think we should all agree on is that new business means progress and I'm all for it. If you believe a casino will be decide the ultimate fate of buffalo I guess you don't really understand what this city is all about, it's not 1 business, it´s all of they collectively that willl determine our future and quite honestly I have to support anyone trying to make a difference.

hmm... understand your point viking but i'm not sure the senecas give the state/city more than the sabres/bills do combined. The state is banking off of the players payroll taxes. Add on sales tax from merchandise, ticket surcharges, etc etc. Surely that's all gotta add up to more than 25mil.

hamp - the "sweetheart deal for the Waterfront Tower" was Paladino's winning bid for city-owned property. If I bid on a property and end up buying it, I wouldn't consider that a sweetheart deal. It's how our free-market system works.

I think its funny... he's just pissed b/c he got a dose of his own medicine and someone else has the upperhand along with a ton of money from a foundation. I agree with the rest.. hate him or love him, one or the other. He does quite a bit, but he is farr from perfect.

As far as the casino.. I applaude CBB for standing up for the community. The Senecas had a chance to do something great here and I for one am extremly dissappointed with the design for the entire compley. Its obvious that Buffalo has much more going for it than Niagara FAlls...why would anyone settle for an urban island this close to our burgeoning waterfront? Absolutely insane. NOt for or against, but casinos are still a one stop shop.. I was hoping this one would have been different.

Rest assured, the casino will make it a one stop destination. They will have high quality and reasonable retaurants for all tastes and budgets, gift stores that carry everything "Buffalo" Buffalo sells, gyms, hair salons, and all kinds of ammenities to meet the demands of their clients. Not to mention inexpensive rooms! They will even have a convenience store that will make that extra stop on the way home unnecessary. The net value to adjoining businesses is between negligible and zero.

For the record, I am not against gambling and I go to Nevada more than once per year. I love Vegas! I drive by the local Indian casino twice a day. When I glance at the parking lot, what do I see? A sea of older, beat up cars. What does that tell me about the employees and the clients?

I wonder if Martha Stewart would call it a "good thing."

He's NOT correct, on several counts:

1) Yes, there are a number of Buffalonians that drive to Fort Erie who will take a shorter drive downtown, but opening a new casino will attract many multiples of that number from Buffalo, who would otherwise be spending that gambling money on restaraunts, hockey games, etc.

2) People will drive from Toronto to Buffalo to Gamble? Right. Why wouldn't they just go to Niagara Falls, Ont.? The Fallsview casino is gorgeous. There's no reason to drive the extra 45 minutes, not to mention a border crossing.

3) Casinos don't spur development. It's a one-stop shop. You go gambling at a casino, then you eat dinner at one of the zillion restaurants inside the casino, then you go home. Why go to a bar when you get free drinks at the casino?

I'm not anti-gambling. In fact I love to go to casinos, and if this one's built, I will definately go. But the civic-minded half of me wishes it doesn't open. It will be sucking millions of local dollars that would otherwise be spent at local businesses out of the pockets of Buffalonians, and no one else.

Can't use Niagara Falls Canada for comparison, they did it right, the dollars stay in the city.

BRO is unbelievably impotent. What am I supposed to take away from this article? Prepare for interviews and ask good questions. I can't tell if even one question was actually asked of Carl Paladino.

C.P: "In this town you either work for the government or you're on welfare." BRO: "yes Mister Paladino"

I was trying to stay quiet about this but now i have to speak my mind. First off you anti casino people dont know what your talking about. The so called project people that dont have any money already spend there money on gambling. You people must not go down there much because if you did, you would see that they are in stores buying 10 top 20 dollar lottery tickets already. Second when was there ever going to be a place that was going to bring 1000 to 1500 good paying jobs to buffalo with benefits??????? How about NERVERRRRRRRR. Also the senecas are paying for the whole project with there money and dont want any handouts. Another point I want to make is you keep talking about spending money on the sabres, well let me tell you something the senecas give more money to the state and tax payers then the sabres and bills combine period. Also the casino is only part of the puzzle and not the whole thing and with the mix of all the other devolpements going on around it this will only bring more people to buffalo to spend money in buffalo and not only on the casino. I am a living proof of that. I go to Niagara Falls casino alot and yes i can afford it and when i stay over night I dont stay at the casino or eat at the casino i do that in Niagara Falls hotels and resturants. I was looking forward to the casino opening in Buffalo because i planned on coming to Buffalo alot more and yes spending money in Buffalo on hotels and eating but i can say this that i have money and if this casino doesnt go through I dont care what Buffalo puts in the waterfront I will never spend a dime in Buffalo ever. Oner last point before i go. Just to let you people know that dont understand anything, the people that stay at the hotel in the casino, most of them are there because they one a free room for the night with gambling. So all you people that think that the casino hotel is going to suck all the people away from the other Buffalo hotels are crazy. I have alot more to say but I will end it here.

I don't really understand why Paladino keeps getting to use BRO as his personal soapbox. There ARE other developers in this city ya know. And last time I checked, Paladino was not elected to any position representing the residents of WNY.

I'm also confused whether he was FOR the casinor before he was Against it? or the other way around... I couldve sworn a previous "interview" with him went on tangental rants about how casinos suck. Maybe he SHOULD be a politician. He knows how to say a lot without saying anything.

skarnath - well put

people have to stop being so ignorant and lean the facts. the idea of a casino and high-rise hotel got me excited when i first heard about it. but then i read into the facts. if the city isnt going to benefit at all from this project then I am against it. (5-7 million for slots that will dry up in 15 yrs is not my idea of great benefit)

TroyT, well said. Hamp, I'll take one angry man who acts, vs. a hundred that whine. I'll count you with the hundred.

Jattea- very well said, Its not that casinos are evil or immoral, just not good for the host community.

He is abso*%#@*^#lutely correct...

How many buildings will he knock down for parking with this new Boutique Hotel and Apartment building????

I'm with carl on this guys. He is right on the point that the minority gets everything they ask for now and if the majority wants something they give in because they feel its the right thing to do. I just hope something good comes to Buffalo and that businesses don't get scared off by all the obstruction buffalo brings to the table if a group doesn't like an idea that comes to Buffalo. Its a Ferry tale world some people live in that they think some silver bullet business that is perfect in every way will come to Buffalos aid and save us. You don't think businesses do research on a city before they come? I'm sure they will see the obstructionist past businesses have had with Buffalo. They won't want to deal with it, they will go to the midwest were cities give them what they want because they know the more businesses coming in means more money and better paying jobs. EX. BASS PRO ...How many times did they have to change their plans because the city complained? We bitched so much they probably won't come here anymore. Good Job people. I just hope Buffalo wakes up and starts allowing businesses to build in the city and knock down the old dilapidated buildings that have been like that for decades. We need businesses not a silver bullet.

Appropraite, please give it a rest. Buffalo has always been a city of beginnings, but never endings, That is the problem. And as Far as the Nf casino goes, I'd say an additional 3500 jobs in the last 5 years is spinoff, the New Crown Plaza across the street spinoff, Several renovated Historic apartment building like the Jefferson are spinoff. In fact there probably is more construction there than in th cobblestone. And wait ntil the SGC releases the plans for the talllest hotel tower between toronto and NYC. OH!! that's you Try sending them a letter about your concerns rather than bitch about it on a blog they will never read.

If your for or against the CBB "citizens for a better buffalo" and what they have done for the casino let them know. They are the ones that can either continue to stop the casino or let it go now. So let them know how you feel. Heres their email address: Ed@BetterBuffalo.com . My opinion is: they have been around for 2 years and all they have done to make buffalo better is sue to stop the casino. I can already see my property values rising and my tax dollars decreasing. Deep breathe now..hoping hoping.....damn my house is still worth the same, my property value hasn't come up and the crack head is still wondering around outside.

I would rather give company's such Bass Pro 65 million of our tax dollars than have the Seneca's and people like Paladino spend 500 million + of their own money investing in Buffalo. Plus, I like working hard to pay taxes for the unemployed to stay on welfare when the thought of 1100 plus jobs disolve. In the end this will work out as we all know many fortune 500 companys are panting to open in Buffalo and employ thousands, which is a good thing for all the condo's gong up in the unused office and warehouse buildings.

"By the way...you put a casino here, Buffalo will take off."

Just like Niagara Falls?

OHHHH the DND , all 3 people that make it up. I'M trying to get two more people together to form the QAR or will I call it the YUH or the BBZ. Sooo Impressed am I.

Carl Paladino is right!

Someone sees pie in the sky if they think the jobs will pay 30K-40K. These casinos are not subject to minimum wage laws. In California, they used a formula that paid the workers just enough so they could still qualify for state funded medical insurance (MediCal) and public housing. They also do not treat them well. So, when I hear about the jobs people so hope will come to revitalize the city, I can't help but laugh to myself. Casinos are ultimately big burdens on the communities where ever they are.

Too bad Brette Skarnaff didn't get his way. So now he's pissed. And Hamp sounds like a screaming {deleted}

And the minute they make it different, the same people would scream they are competing with local vendors. . And burgeoning is hardly the word to use to describe a neighborhood that is currently 80% gravel lots. You want to see a burgeoning waterfront goto Balimore or Toronto or San Fran, or Vancouver, or Boston or... And maybe then you will reconsider your use of the word burgeoning.

hamp - the "sweetheart deal for the Waterfront Tower" was Paladino's winning bid for city-owned property. If I bid on a property and end up buying it, I wouldn't consider that a sweetheart deal. It's how our free-market system works.

OHHHH the DND , all 3 people that make it up. I'M trying to get two more people together to form the QAR or will I call it the YUH or the BBZ. Sooo Impressed am I.

Are we all to blind to see how wonderful Niagara Falls CANDADA Looks? TWO Casino's and it's VIBRANT with theme restaurants, family fun places (games, haunted houses), museums, etc. Sooooo the New York side sucks, why are we comparing Buffalo to Niagara Falls, two different cities, One already draws Tourists because of the Falls, the other is just a passerby city with some coming to see the Architecture, after that...????? well, for now we have plenty of empty store fronts, and few open during the lunch hours and waterfront to Look At, a casino is sort of a plus for "Something to Do" , right???

Buffalo is doomed. I am a huge city advocate..but it is getting hard. Fact is that Carl is right. Oh yes, and you are right that he is trying to make money on this project. But only in Buffalo is trying to make money viewed as crime by the public. The point is that a majority of jobs in the area come from government and we have several people living off the system. That is bad news for any city. “Democracy fails when the masses figure out that they can vote all the money out of the public coffers”. This kind of sums it up. We now have more people living off the public coffers then people that can afford to put money into it. Those people putting money into the coffers have little voice on how that money is going to be spent. Gives people with money afraid to invest in the city because you will have little voice. Example: lets say an individual that makes money and is highly taxed funds 100% of a pool of money. Three people control this pool. One of the people that is given a vote is the person that funds the 100%. Another person that is given a vote for this pool is hired from this pool of money (government worker). The other with a vote is currently not working but is provided with social services. The two (government worker and person on social services) can take majority control over this pool of money. Sucks to be the one that funds the pool. Feels like your giving your lunch money to the school bully. That is why areas like Buffalo , Detroit and others that fit this matrix have difficulty pulling themselves out of this cycle. Money goes were it can have a voice and be successful.

People on social services are unlikely to vote. In fact the poor and minorities have a record of not taking part in the democratic process. Kinda makes you wonder who we should blame for the political mess in WNY.

State funded or do you man some form state/local financal aid package.. Is there any major constructon in downtown Buffalo that has beeen done w/o some form of government subsidy or tax break in the last 40 years?

That being said I agree with you that the host communities should recieve the Lions share of any payments made in lieu of taxes by the SGC.

"Balimore or Toronto or San Fran, or Vancouver, or Boston or... And maybe then you will reconsider your use of the word burgeoning."

how many casinos on those waterfronts?

MJWorthington- Can you say Lotto.