The BR headline says 73% say to move it downtown, but the Buffalo News today said the 73% favored downtown if it was to be moved. If. Not the same question.

UB law students prefer downtown law school Updated: 04/22/08 8:49 AM If University at Buffalo law students have their way … and they're a persuasive bunch … the law school would move to downtown Buffalo. UB law students were asked last week where the law school should go if it were to be relocated, and 73 percent suggested downtown Buffalo. ...

http://www.buffalonews.com/258/story/329168.html

What percent chose downtown vs. staying at Amherst if that was provided as on option?

RonR --

You couldn't be more off-base (or condescending) if you tried. Your characterization of these students as not living in the real world, or living on daddy's dime, is insulting and false. Maybe you missed the point, but these folks support themselves by working in "real world" law firms. That's a big part of the reason to put the school downtown.

The law srudents aren't demanding that the taxpayers build them anything. They're asking to have their voices heard as part of a process -- UB 2020 -- that is already happening, and on which the school is actively seeking feedback.

Buffedout. I totally agree with you that UB Law needs to address ALL of the problems that restrict it from becoming more respected nationally. If facilities are in fact part of the problem then I am all for building a new Law School down town. If facilites don't factor in then maybe other issues should be addressed first.

TiftRow and Rebecca - Thanks for clarifying about the election. I agree sample size sounds reasonable, FWIW.

Small confusion: TiftRow said "There will be a move, the law school isn't staying in O'Brien", but referendum question 3 explicitly lists O'Brian as a option. A popular one it turns out, with 72% among Amherst choices. Why would they officially rule out O'Brian so early in the process, and if they did rule it out then why still list it on the ballot a few days ago? Maybe they haven't decided that yet.

Talk about dwelling in the past, the continual discussion about UB being built in Amherst is exhausting. The decision to build where it is was made 40+ years ago. (Maybe a new poll should be: Were you born when the ground-breaking occurred on the Amherst campus?) I personally wonder what would have been different if the new campus had been built downtown, but it really doesn't matter anymore. ->hamp: "it's physical setting is inferior to most other distinguished colleges and universities." Can you provide an example of the superior settings of other campuses? Urbana-Champaign? A great college town, but in the middle of nowhere. Is that better than Amherst, NY? Penn State? in State College, PA? A college town to be sure, but again, it hardly compares to being 7 miles from downtown Buffalo in terms of arts and culture and restaurants. Schools that are in urban centers have other challenges - cost being the main one if they want to build a new building. I have witnessed first hand out of town visitors who are very impressed with the north campus. IF the problem is lack of walkable services near North campus, talk to the town of Amherst. I don't want to imply that it was better to build it in Amherst as opposed to downtown, but it really doesn't make sense to harp on this.

Moving the Law School downtown entails much more than just a building; it requires additional campus policing, campus to campus transportation, parking (which is essentially free at UB), and greatly limits access to other UB facilities. Students are not the only affected groups by such a change.

A poll of current Law students, while interesting, does not provide real information or justification. The poll worth seeing would be a poll of accepted students who chose to go elsewhere. Ask them why (was it because the campus was not downtown?).

Now, a light rail line to north campus is a different story. This is something that would benefit all and link the campuses (including the current downtown building) in a greener, more favorable way.

The *real* challenge to the UB Law School is not the location of O'Brian, but rather the petition by SUNY Binghamton to create a Law School.

If part of UBs expansion is to create new buildings it makes sence to move disaplines that would be helped the most. The law school makes the most sense downtown near all the courts and laywers. No need to demand kick backs form the students. Will we be demanding donations for any disapline that gets a new building?

Maybe if the school was more interconnected to the core of law in this area giving a better learning experience students would feel a greater connection and be more willing to donate in the future? Maybe the demand for the better program would result in being able to charge more? This more than a shiney new building, it is about using the growth opportunity to put the program in an environment that allows the students to get the most out of it.

It could all be connected by the light rail.

Super8 sounds alot like Chris69 with that "center for excellence" talk....new name...same stupid remarks...

InTheBuffalo -

Thanks for clarifying - all that is useful.

Curious about two more things you might know: what percent of the law school student body took the survey, and was it a random sample of all current law students or only those who expressed an interest in the topic by attending an event about law school location or something like that?

This is proving to be a timely discussion - check out a couple of related headline stories in the RaChaCha newspaper today. Don't bother stopping at Wegmans to pick up a paper copy, unless you happen to have fish to wrap - it's online at DemocratandChronicle.com. A couple of highlights: This week folks from St. John Fisher College, who are looking at starting a law school in My Fair City, will be looking at sites with City officials. The sites are ALL downtown, and ALL existing buildings. This strikes me as both good planning, and a smart way to use existing resources.

The other item is a related article quoting extensively (sample below) from UB Law School Dean Mutua, frankly carping about our efforts here (and in Binghamton). As a regular commenter on BRO, I couldn't credibly suggest butting out of matters in another city, but my immediate reaction to Mutua is that with decling rankings he might do well to attend to matters in his own nest, rather than squawk about what the birds in the next nest over are trying to hatch. Also, that perhaps this is a thinly veiled attempt on his part to set up a straw man to help him make some kind of 'fairness' case to the State for more resources - especially that new building he seems to want quite badly (see quote below).

So while we're butting into the affairs of each other's cities - and getting back to the subject of this BRO article - may I suggest a response to the State officials that Mutua is making his case to: "You want funding for new facilities? Well, look at the approach they're taking in Rochester - they're looking at downtown, and at reuse of existing buildings. In an era where everyone's taking every opportunity to reverse bad planning decisions of the past, and trying to do more with less, plan to follow that model in Buffalo and we'll plan to help you."

I'm glad BRO is following this story thread - if Mutua keeps this up it may get even more interesting.

QUOTE: Rochester Democrat and Chronicle, 4/23/08

Mutua said the state hasn't done enough to support UB's law school and doesn't need to spend taxpayer dollars studying whether to establish more state-run law schools, let alone one that would be affiliated with a private college.

"It's mind-boggling for the state to contemplate giving money to start up a private law school," said Mutua, a UB law faculty member for nearly a dozen years before being named interim dean in December.

The state would be better off investing in UB to hire more faculty members and recruit students for its law school, where about 800 students must share a 35-year-old building with undergraduates, Mutua said.

"We need a completely new building," he said. "We're squeezed for space."

ok well as long as I was brought into this bitchfest SLEEP8, here are my comments.

1) Actually there are alot of fiascos....like Govenors and Ellicott dormatories were actually designs for New Mexico and are extremely drafty in our climate

2) Actually Amherst wasnt designed to be as car friendly as people bitch about because the original campus had a monorail connecting it to the south campus

3) Yes the Law, Jounalism and Performing Arts disciplines all need to move downtown in some fashion because that is where private and public sector employment is located. However there is talk about cannibalizing the north campus and south campus for the BNMA and downtown which is ridiculous. Why? Because there are more than enough new degree programs in all sorts of technologies and industries that could be started and or expanded if only there was the space. I say move the degree programs that better fit downtown and expand the degree curriculum.

4) there is nothing stupid about additional centes for excellence. Rochester adds about 1 per year and they have managed to create 30 new businesses. Urhum....Buffalo has 1 cente for excellence and what 3 companies?

I love reading these comments because everytime I think there is hope for Buffalo...reading these comments remind me the fundamental flaw in Buffalo is its myopic mentally deficient retards...that talk, think and write as though they earn their living at the local Wilson Farms.

Nice job, Rebecca and your colleagues. Although I'm not an attorney, and don't know the ins and outs of legal education, it has always struck me as very sensible to have law schools located near the courts, which in urban centers are in downtowns. And you don't have to go far from those courts to find the law offices. Why not have law students in an environment near that in which many will practice their profession, and close to many of their future professional colleagues (and potential mentors)--?

This is particularly timely in light of this month's announcement by St. John Fisher College near me of its intention to create a law school in My Fair City (see article below). Although Fisher is in one of our most prosperous suburbs (akin to Amherst's relation to Buffalo), and they are not pressed for space, notice where they intend to locate the law school: Downtown.

As for UB North Campus, in terms of location and surroundings, based on my own experience I have to side with Steel and Queenseyes. A few years ago I seriously considered the business school at UB - the programs and the recruiter seemed top notch. Then I visited North Campus, and the business school building (near the law school, if I remember) - all I can say politely is that I felt the surroundings oppressive and just couldn't bear the thought of going back again.

Messenger Post Wed Apr 09, 2008, 09:42 AM EDT Rochester, N.Y. -

St. John Fisher College has confirmed it is moving ahead with plans to start the Rochester area’s first law school, and it would be downtown. State Sen. Joe Robach said the state will apply $2.25 million toward phase one of the Fisher Law School.

“The idea of a law school has been under consideration for a year,” said Fisher President Donald Bain.

Robach said the money would go toward renovating a downtown building into the law school. There has been some limited site survey, but no specific location has been selected.

Robach said the move is an indication that this school is trying to become a bigger player in the community. This would be the only law school in the area.

I graduated from UB Law a few years ago and I can guarantee that if a petition were to be circulated around UB Law's alumni regarding moving the law school, practically everyone would sign. The suburban location of the law school is incredibly inconvenient for students when you consider that most of them work part-time for firms located downtown. I often had to leave a class on the Amherst campus and drive into the city for either my job, internship or other classes. Almost everyone I knew lived in the city and commuted to the school.

Yes, UB is now ranked behind 99 other law schools - and maybe one of the first initiatives they should consider is moving the school back down to the legal core where it used to be located. I'm pretty sure that most, if not all, of the 99 law schools ranked ahead of UB did that long ago.

When the students are tired of being land-locked on a former swamp, it's only a matter of time before there is a call to action. With the recent reports that the Law School is facing tough competition, and the ranking is being affected

Imagine the uproar if someone took the opposite point and spoke negatively about the city vs. the suburbs. Something like Canisius expanding into Amherst due to crime, desolation, or lack of available space for expansion. I find this type of one-sided comment to be destructive and counter-productive regardless of which side makes the point.

It may be worthwhile to keep in mind that this has been an ongoing topic of discussion for over 20 years. I am optimistic that progress will be made, but let's do it in a positive and constructive manner.

Such a positive article about one of the greatest assets to Western New York. This sounds like a perpetuation of the Buffalo vs. Suburbs mentality. I honestly expect better of Buffalo Rising, I guess regionalism only applies when it benefits the City.

Whereas the law students of U.B. deserve nothing less than a brand new "Celino And Barnes Tower", to be the tallest structure downtown. The $365,000,000 shall come from an endowment created by the sale of the state lotto system to a private company for a lump sum. Bashaar shall be the landlord since he has a great spot for the tower.

The powers that be at UB law school have been ignoring the wishes of the law students and downtown legal community since the 1960's when the move to Amherst was first planned. Of course the law school should be downtown with acess to the courts. It will never happen because the law school is not concerned about the impact on the community and their students, only the impact on themselves.

I don't see why we can't slowly start putting UB South DOWNTOWN one building at a time. It will fix the problems we made in the 70's.

It's kinda sad that the people paying the second highest tuition at UB have to take classes in a basement.

We already have too many lawyers making America a shitty place to live. Close the law school and use the space for an environmental studies center of excellence. We don't need more lawyers, we don't need more political correctness and people living in fear that they might offend somebody or that one mistake will cost them everything that they have worked for. Lawyers cause increases in taxes and create an unecessary burden on our government resources with frivolous lawsuits and single interest demands. We need more social workers and teachers, not more lawyers.

Excellent points from BuffaloDrift, and Einstein. I've tried to make points here previously similar to this:

Talk about dwelling in the past, the continual discussion about UB being built in Amherst is exhausting. The decision to build where it is was made 40+ years ago. ...Urbana-Champaign?

A great college town, but in the middle of nowhere.

Is that better than Amherst, NY?

Penn State? in State College, PA? A college town to be sure, but again, it hardly compares to being 7 miles from downtown Buffalo in terms of arts and culture and restaurants.

Schools that are in urban centers have other challenges - cost being the main one if they want to build a new building. I have witnessed first hand out of town visitors who are very impressed with the north campus. ...

But it never seems to matter to some who feel they're standing up for their beloved political entity and fighting the good fight against the entity right next door to it with out-of-touch extreme weirdness like this:

When the students are tired of being land-locked on a former swamp, it's only a matter of time before there is a call to action.

Strange, yet usual around here.

"which is essentially free at UB" if by free you mean hidden then yes you are right. Students pay a lot of money in fees whether they use it or not. Parking is never free.

How about the Tishman building? It's on the market, as per the Buffalo News.

Welcome* I didn't learn how to type or spell good at Wilson Farms.

Put the law school in the Statler Towers

Wecome back buddy.

We already have too many lawyers making America a shitty place to live. Close the law school and use the space for an environmental studies center of excellence. We don't need more lawyers, we don't need more political correctness and people living in fear that they might offend somebody or that one mistake will cost them everything that they have worked for. Lawyers cause increases in taxes and create an unecessary burden on our government resources with frivolous lawsuits and single interest demands. We need more social workers and teachers, not more lawyers.

"(UB202 is) currently in the final stages" not even close. November is the scheduled release of the first draft plan.. Right now everything is still considered Idea Generation.

Law makes sense downtown the question then is if Health Sciences (5 schools) want to move downtown as well how do we continue to grow south campus.

Remember UB2020 is a plan where ALL campuses grow so we can't shoot one campus for the sake of another even if many of us would want to. Would it be better even if not ideal to be on south campus, a 12 minute subway ride to the courts and law offices. I think it would be better than north but certainly not as perfect as being downtown.

Law School should be in Statler towers

We should just give he city of Buffalo to SUNY and hope they can revitalize down town.

Why on earth would a bunch of law students want their place of education by the courts??? Silly buffaloanians

RingRoadRunner: a 5-star comment, which nicely explains why I'm so positive on the prospect of a downtown location for the law school being proposed in My Fair City.

I think the idea is that with UB's plan for growth, there is a need and desire to re-think the current and future makeup of the campuses. Does it make academic sense to place certain schools in one location over another. Does it make sense to leave them all where they are now.

There seems to be a good case to bring the law school to closer proximity for the courts and law firms that the students must interact with. Just as every great Health Science school is directly intertwined with their teaching hospital and research facilities. (also something UB does a poor job of) Requiring Biomedical students to traverse downtown and other places for trials, clinical and professor office hours.

I feel that the law schools petition while trying to support a move downtown could be better looked at as... If we are going to move... then we vote and feel that downtown is the best option for us. Maybe they won't move at all but if other departments need room to grow that are not associated with such strong ties outside of the campus (engineer, classics, english or other humanities) maybe the current law space would be in the best interests of other departments to become re-purposed. There are a lot of pieces to the UB puzzle and I give the law students credit for taking the initiative and putting together a resolution that states what they feel would be in their best interests to the administration.. it is up to the planners and admin to decide if it is then in the best interests of UB as a whole for them to move.

I have a feeling it might be.

"Last Thursday, law students at the University at Buffalo were posed with a question: if the law school were to be re-located, where should it go? A resounding 73 % said downtown Buffalo would be the ideal place for them to attend school, live and work."

Good old lawyer speak. "If you committed the crime, how would you have done it?" Well, what if were not to be "re-located"?

You guys are wasting your time. SUNY keeps getting budget cut after budget cut, and the legislature will never allow major tuition increases. They can't afford all the 2020 stuff and moving the law school at the same time. Why don't they just scrap the whole 2020 thing as a pipe dream, it makes them look like idiots. And then maybe they'll have the money to do things like move the law school