Ellicott Development Eyes Waterfront Village Project

After losing out to Terry Pegula for development rights to the Webster Block, Ellicott Development is eyeing a parcel in nearby Waterfront Village for a mixed-use development.  “The Carlo” would include offices, a hotel, apartments, restaurants and a spa according to Business First.  The project would be built on city-owned land next to the Waterfront Village Office Center.

From Business First:

The project, dubbed “The Carlo” after [Ellicott Development chairman Carl] Paladino’s grandfather, was the centerpiece of Mayor Byron Brown’s “State of the City Address” delivered Friday afternoon. The project is to include Class A office space, a 138-room hotel, apartments, restaurants and a spa.

carlosite.JPGAmong its highlights, the Carlo will feature:
• An estimated 100,000-square-feet of Class A office space
• A 138-room hotel. Paladino said he is negotiating with several major hotel chains
• 32 apartments including four penthouse units
• A 5,000-square-foot spa and fitness center
• More than 8,600-square-feet of banquet facilities, including a “green roof” where patrons can walk outside and look out on Lake Erie and the marina
• A pair of upscale restaurants including one that will be on a rooftop
• A bar
• Indoor pool
• A 602-space parking ramp
• A parking lot with 40 spaces

A later phase will add a series of one-story and two-story buildings designed for retail and small-scale commercial tenants.

Pending various municipal reviews, Paladino said he hopes to break ground next spring and have the Carlo open by 2015.

WPL_0314.JPGEllicott Development has Waterfront Village development experience.  The firm built eight townhouses on Lakefront Drive in 2005.  It also built a 13-story condominium tower with 49 units and five townhouses at Waterfront Place.  Eighty percent of the units at Waterfront Place are sold with the balance leased.  There is vacant land at that site to construct additional residential units.

Entry image of preliminary plan from Business First/Ellicott Development

About the author  ⁄ buffalorising

101 comments
whatever
whatever

What schetm said.

There's already a big surplus of vacant buildings &/or vacant land for all of that stuff you listed, not only around Black Rock but in almost all (perhaps literally 'all') parts of Buffalo...

matt.r>"bars, restaurants, nightlife, clubs, performance venues; boutique retail, artisan shops; health clubs, hotels, office space"

Lack of space isn't keeping any of that from happening.

Btw, the over 40,000 vehicles per day using that part of the 190 include much more than 'commuters', and impacts of diverting that much daily traffic would be longer than 5 minutes.

Businesses in Buffalo/WNY also make much use of the 190, along with many residents for purposes beyond commuting.

nyc
nyc

i have the same question..what happened to the bridge plan! (and how would this impact it)

Did they really think planting trees on ohio street was an acceptable alternative?

300miles
300miles

I haven't seen it mentioned here yet, but that location was where the Erie St harbor bridge option was planned. Was the site ever really made available for development? And what is the status of the harbor bridge project anyway. Obviously the Erie st option is no longer an alternative... (not that it was a very good alternative anyway...). Is that whole project dead since they started the Ohio st parkway plans?

schetm
schetm

In order for there to be development, there need to be people. The Buffalo metro area simply doesn't have enough people with a high enough income to support the large scale development that you propose. Tear down the I-190, and you have just another shovel ready site, something that the City of Buffalo is full of.

brownteeth
brownteeth

I know..all his places sound like pizzeria names.

Jay D
Jay D

THERE ARENT EVEN ANY TREES IN THE RENDERING!

Styler
Styler

Certainly nothing wrong with a good-looking, useful building. This is not good-looking.

elmdog
elmdog

Is there a city in the country that is on water that doesnt have a hotel on the water?????Its an embarrassment that we dont have a hotel on the water yet...fasttrack

Styler
Styler

I just hope the architects realize that anything that gets built on the waterfront ends up front and center in pictures of Buffalo's skyline. It's beginning to look like a dark, brick wall is being built in front if the city with what had been built already. This picture looks like a Holiday Inn Express.

whatever
whatever

"Not that he feared paladino would buy this particular parcel from the city and then do nothing with it."

nyc - ok, but if your interpretation is right then I wouldn't see what the relevant point was supposed to be in context of this thread about the parcel in question.

Did it look intended by hamp to be just an ad hominem attack on Paladino?

sonyactivision
sonyactivision

It's always a good time to build. Look at Tokyo: why in a nation facing steep demograophic decline are they building so many new towers? Because they can. We were put on this earth to develop real estate. That is our mission as humans, to build! Build! Build!

nyc
nyc

i understood the comment as hamp making a general statement about paladino. Not that he feared paladino would buy this particular parcel from the city and then do nothing with it.

and of course paladino has had many successful projects. that's why he can afford to buy up so much property and just sit on it.

But let's hope the city puts out an rfp. I can't imagine its legal for the city to just sell to who they like without getting the best offer. However we do know the city likes to give things away to paladino (the Mohawk Street right of way!)

Matthew.Ricchiazzi
Matthew.Ricchiazzi

Oh boo-who, it would take commuters an extra five minutes in either direction. Stop the complaining and move downtown!

Development of what? Everything! Various housing options at every price point in the market; bars, restaurants, nightlife, clubs, performance venues; boutique retail, artisan shops; health clubs, hotels, office space; and other diverse uses...

mikerals
mikerals

That this comment received four up votes is frightening. This building boom is better described as a bullcrap boom. Population is still shrinking in the city AND the county. I cant believe these stupid projects can even get financing.

And naming a project after your own relative is in incredibly poor taste.

mikerals
mikerals

That this comment received four up votes is frightening. This building boom is better described as a bullcrap boom. Population is still shrinking in the city AND the county. I cant believe these stupid projects can even get financing.

And naming a project after your own relative is in incredibly poor taste.

whatever
whatever

I very much doubt your prediction about anyone wondering why it wasn't done sooner - since the removal won't happen, isn't being seriously advocated or even studied, isn't funded (nor is a replacement funded), and would do economic harm to residents and businesses if it did happen - to remove a road used by well over 40,000 cars/trucks per day on average (find i190 in here to see that).

Icing on the cake is there's no good reason to think any great amount of 'development' would result within those pink shaded areas on your webpage's drawing labeled for that.

Development of what?

Hotels or upscale retail?

Unlikely (especially without highway access lol), and wouldn't be growth anyhow even if it did somehow.

Office buildings?

Even less likely considering location, lack of highways, and downtown's oversupply.

Musical chairs subsidized residential?

Ok, perhaps some of that would happen, shifting some existing population to there if the govt subsidy was enough - say Sycamore Village style at worst, or Colvin Estates style at best.

whatever
whatever

But TLine - hamp was raising that in this discussion about this parcel. Didn't this look to be implying he'd buy this and not develop it?

hamp>"I don't trust someone as despicable as Paladino. He likes to buy up property so no one else can develop it."

Paladino's open candidness with you in your discussion with him about yes _sometimes_ he does buy with no development intent doesn't at all mean that he's lying about this one in which he's saying the opposite.

While I don't think he or anyone should be sold this parcel without an RFP bidding process by the City, I also don't see any reason to assume he's lying about intent to promptly develop on this - just like obviously he had intent to develop on the many sites where he already has (shown in lists on the Ellicott Dev website for residential, offices, retail, hotels, etc).

impressingagent
impressingagent

Ellicotts Webster proposal may have a more appealing exterior facade and i particularly like the modern corner design. So in a perfect world they wouldn't restructure their original idea into a new and isolated area, There would be just enough land around in district for both projects.

Just having the canals is going to be big. If they were able to build another mix use project in the vicinity of the harbor center project, we would really be extrapolating the best experience. Growing the cobblestone district with the inner harbor is a vital interest. Build across the street from the arena and make the parking garage bigger.

sonyactivision
sonyactivision

It's a fantastic example of late modernist Brutalism. Easily on a par with Embarcadero Center in San Francisco. Buffalo should be damn proud of and cherish the glorious Adams Mark.

sonyactivision
sonyactivision

574,000 sq. ft...of what? Parking ramp?

Is this real life?

No_Illusions
No_Illusions

Think of them as a place holder. Projects like this one is only going to raise the property value. Eventually it won't be cost effective to keep so few apartments in that large of a space...but that also depends on the continued development of the lower East Side as well.

No_Illusions
No_Illusions

Canadians. Toronto is one of the fastest growing cities in North America right now. As long as prices stay high in Canada and diversity of goods low, we will continue to see an increasing stream of Canadian shoppers who can return with more goods across the border, the longer they stay.

And none of these projects are very large. A few hotel room here a few hotel rooms there is enough to meet the growing demand.

No_Illusions
No_Illusions

The federal debt is not like normal debt at all though. There is no proof that there is any direct negative consequence of issuing more debt, unlike taking on more debt as an individual.

Calling it magic money is fair though, all it would take is 14 $1,000,000,000,000 coins to be minted, and technically we wouldn't be in debt anymore (like magic).

As far as I am concerned Keynesian economics (issue debt in poor economic times, pay off that debt in good economic times) is still the most subscribed to theory on both sides of the political spectrum. Without the debt relief the middle class received this recession would have been a depression on a scale not seen since the great depression. You can tell us how debt is bad at the federal level is bad, but you are preaching against the choir.

Now too much debt at the state or city level can indeed be bad (since they do not control the production of money). Which is why we need to budget wisely. However tax breaks for developments like these will lead to more taxes being generated in the long run since a parking lot does not generate any tax revenue at all.

No_Illusions
No_Illusions

Its replacing a surface lot. I'm not sure what the complaint is. If anything this parking garage will facilitate the development of the other surface lots.

No_Illusions
No_Illusions

You're forgetting that many people use the 190 to commute to the large factories in North Buffalo/Tonawanda from the south, and places like the Larkin district from the North.

So its not a simple solution.

If we expanded public transportation then it might be feasible, but so far its an integral artery for Buffalo itself.

RPreskop
RPreskop

I agree with the above comments about the Adams Mark Hotel. That is probably the ugliest and one of the most poorly designed and built buildings in our city. It is a nine story, suburban style piece of garbage that scars the downtown waterfront area. Probably Adams Mark could team up with Paladino for the hotel prtion of this waterfront, mixed use project and move from their crappy, ugly digs to the new hotel-apartment tower. Here is a golden opportunity to correct a major redevelopment blunder. Move the Adams Mark Hotel to the proposed Paladino mixed use project and tear down that ugly, poorly built piece of shit on Church and Terrace Streets.

sbrof
sbrof

The city should use this development as the opportunity to straighten out Erie Street to provide the direct views of the waterfront and lake from further inland. The curvy road both create extra infrastructure to maintain and limits the overall size of developable land in the inner harbor.

I think it is part of the City's approved Waterfront Corridor Initiative to straighten the street as well. Page 104

http://urbandesignproject.ap.buffalo.edu/projects/wci/QCW_Volume1_Strategy.pdf

Matthew.Ricchiazzi
Matthew.Ricchiazzi

After we tear it down, we're all going to be wondering why we waited so long. We're going to wonder why we didn't do it 20 years ago, and reflect on all the lost time and stalled progress.

ironliege
ironliege

A new convention center-stadium complex downtown would likely bring demand for more hotels and shops. Perhaps some of the developers are 'warehousing' properties as speculation. The complex needs 200 acres, from what I've gathered in various articles. Cuomo wants it downtown - downtown is more than simply the waterfront. Could be it's all part of an overall 'thinking ahead' on the part of developers and politicians. At least we have folks looking forward to a thriving future rather than whining about how 'we can't do anything in Buffalo so move it all to the burbs.'

impressingagent
impressingagent

Just imagine if they were able to build this on the other side of the HSBC atrium. Ideally you would have two 10 plus story buildings tightly knit close to the arena. While not an amiable option, it would be the best option.

This option would really spur the district big time. Then they could get labatt to build a burbeon street / mini brewery on the Illinois block to upgrade party at the plaza.

RaChaCha
RaChaCha

THE SECOND AMENDMENT CENTER.

MJW
MJW

Or how about, I don't know, views of downtown from the other side? It's not just about the water view. It looks like crap from the 190 side.

The Boss
The Boss

Actually as we continue to develope canalside parking will eventually become an issue. These lots adjacent to Templeton landing are full on Arena nights so Carl is just trying to make room for parking at his project and the revenue potential for arena nights and other waterfront events like Thursday concert series.

bobbyraz49
bobbyraz49

I am thinking the same way when it comes to a downtown or waterfront stadium.

The Boss
The Boss

Who cares who fills the hotel rooms, not my or your problem! Buffalo is seeing a a building boom that has been decades in the making. We are playing catch up at this point. If a few hotel projects go bust than so be it. We have a mixed use project on a vacant parcel on the waterfront...BUILD IT!

The Boss
The Boss

Man you are bitter hamp, it is his building..can't he name it after his grandfather if he wishes. Restaurants, bars, hotel rooms and spa and fitness center all coming to our waterfront...there was a time when such an announcenment would bring joy.

sonyactivision
sonyactivision

That site needs something more ambitious and contextual than the "Carlo".

mlpat
mlpat

OMG ....in reading all the negative comments, I wonder if almost all of these people leaving such negative messages can even grasp or even afford to live in a city that is finally coming into it's own again....if you don't like what's going on here....leave! All your whining and crying and bitching about development means NOTHING to people with money...and who are investing and spending it here....and quite frankly, the way the downtown is rejuvenating and building itself back into a multicultural area and the place to be....you really should start packing and go. CHEERS to the development and the rebirth of Buffalo as a destination!

LouisTully
LouisTully

I like this comment. If you were to look at the properties owned the few large developers/property owners downtown I think your comments would be right on. Look at the blocks of nothingness to the east of the arena. How many of those vacant blocks does Croce own? At least one I know of. I'm sure the others tell a similar story.

In Paladino's defense, I have seen regular work at the Graystone for about the past month or two. Nothing crazy, like cranes, but enough activity to see the street blocked off and workers milling about.

LouisTully
LouisTully

Where's the parking ramp complaints? Where's the "I live here, what good is a hotel" complaints? Saturated hotel market complaints?

Penthouse units, eh. It'll be nice when, someday, a developer comes up with a plan to appeal to someone other than the "penthouse" crowd. Maybe then we'll have downtown residents who aren't above interacting with their neighborhood.

Whatever. Let him build it. It's not like the worth-saving neighborhoods from 50 years ago are still there.

Can Tim Tielman help us with a better proposal so it doesn't distract from our water views and make this area un-walkable??????? HarborCenter left a bad taste in my mouth.

townline
townline

I've had a conversation with Carl where he basically said exactly Hamp's point. He buys property to control property, most with no intention for development. Land is so cheap in Buffalo that a developer that large can do this with no problem. It would be interesting to know the percentage of parcels, unoccupied at purchase by EDC, that they have actually moved forward with development. I would venture a guess that it is less than 10%.

whatever
whatever

hamp>"He likes to buy up property so no one else can develop it."

Right, he never goes ahead and develops anything ever...

well, okay, except for these....

http://www.ellicottdevelopment.com/portfolio/commercial/office/

and these I suppose also count if we're being sticklers...

http://www.ellicottdevelopment.com/portfolio/residential/apartments/

and all right, technically these these other ones too...

http://www.ellicottdevelopment.com/portfolio/hotels/

and this...

http://www.ellicottdevelopment.com/portfolio/residential/condominiums/the-paquale-at-waterfront-place/

okay, there's other too, but the point is we should hate him for his politics the for 3 he hasn't developed at Court St, Greystone, Creamery.

As for the dozens he has developed, we should cover our ears and sing the La-La-La-we're not listening song! Yay!

whatever
whatever

I'll be lazy and borrow/paraphrase LouisT's remark today to OFW in the ECHDC thread -

It's good that people who favor eliminating the 190 highway evidently have as much pull as... well, none.

whatever
whatever

BRL - it seems to me Paladino's political views overlap with about maybe around half or two-thirds of typical tea party views, or something around that portion. It's difficult to characterize because even within the tea party movement there's variance - just like there's variance within the labor movement, or the D and R parties, or Occupy, etc.

Compare that to Cuomo being on a wrong side of almost all issues.

And when Paladino is in the wrong (such as his favoring of corp welfare), Cuomo and pretty much all elected officials around here usually are also on the same wrong side as he is anyway, so by comparison it doesn't make for a reason the TP folks would reject him.

Speaking of Cuomo's gun law...

It's good to see that the Erie Co legislature opposes that, joining the legislatures of over two dozen (so far) counties in NY state. The 7-4 vote in Erie Co included support from two Democrats and an Independence Party member.

whatever
whatever

Yes, that assumption looked dumb.

But bfalling did raise a good point (as did Travelrrr) about an RFP with open bidding.

Any members of the Common Council who don't try to force an RFP process for this are also to blame in addition to Mayor Brown.

whatever
whatever

Up - hypocrisy doesn't fit because Paladino has always been open about favoring most corporate welfare - not just for himself but for others too. He was a big advocate of corp welfare for Bass Pro, for instance.

He's inconsistent in that he criticizes some corp welfare while favoring it usually, but that's the same inconsistency we see from Poloncarz, Sean Ryan, Hoyt, Cuomo - for some projects they favor corp welfare, for some projects they oppose it - just like with Paladino.

The inconsistency does weaken their credentials (any of them) when they sometimes try to argue against it for any project.

A hypocrisy label would fit if someone claimed to be consistently against corp welfare and then argued in favor of it only when personally beneficial.

Paladino's favoring of most corp welfare matches the mainstream of both the R and D parties, unfortunately.

Ironically, it also matches the view of many on BR who favor most corp welfare while despising Paladino.

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